Ouch... moping? tantrum? I thought it was reasonably lucid and even toned.
Hardcore libertarian? Perhaps you missed my entire post on just one of the issues libertarians need to address...
I read your plan... obviously you lay it out as an idea with few supporting details (in which of course we would find the devils). I was not aware that you had it... I still think most of the comments in my past postings apply... a) Government actions in the past have done more than a little to foster this nightmare b) Everyone wants a subsidy c) Where is all the money current Western Civilization needs to maintain its programs going to come from.
It is C that I will look at in this particular post. While Obama and Paul are correct that we are wasting a fortune in military adventures all over the world... the idea that if we stop money will fall from the heaven like manna seems overblown. This reminds me of Bush the Elders 'Peace Dividend'... what dividend? Exactly.
We as a society are broke at every level... SS and Medicare alone will drive us into a financial ruin (ok... this is a bit mopey). And what is the idea for solving that problem? I doubt PL runs up significant medical expenses. I am sure with her full participation in the hippy routines available (truly an endearing quality) that she is not frequent at her local hospital. However, most medical care expenditures occur in the last 6 months of life. Short of avoiding the last 6 months of life, how does one avoid those expenses? As we have already committed to funding them to the largest voting block, and soon to be largest population block, in this country... again, where does the money come from?
One should hardly assume that I am an emotional poster. This represents the one way I can have a conversation with you at all. I abhor using emoticons... but if I need to throw smiley faces in here then I suppose I will... jSin hearts PL :)
As government has risen so has the requirement that we justify so many of our actions to it... even for EBT you have to provide family data, income etc. The idea of a client has long been established (and very documented from at least the Roman Republic times). You owe who you take from and the person you take from owns you. With each successive program and generation of a program it will become more invasive. Give one circus and the next one has to be bigger... Medicare is a perfect example of this... predicted to cost <100B by this time it costs way beyond... still not enough for our seasoned citizens... now cover medicine... which is predicted to cost 800B? What is the likelihood it runs less than 4T.
I do not believe that people are not interconnected... I do not believe we do not have obligations to others... if I was to trail out my personal efforts it would seem simply self promotion... but government is not society... government is not what interconnects us... government is force... sometimes force is necessary (how libertarian does that make me sound?) but must all associations, all charity, all civil interactions be driven by it?
Hmm let me throw in a :) hah hah (<--- see I thought it was funny) :) (I really did... not being sarcastic)
I honestly do appreciate your lengthy and thoughtful replies... I have found that people who think on things as a population are about as dead as conversation...
"Grounded in research at the Dartmouth Medical School, slow medicine encourages physicians to put on the brakes when considering care that may have high risks and limited rewards for the elderly, and it educates patients and families how to push back against emergency room trips and hospitalizations designed for those with treatable illnesses, not the inevitable erosion of advanced age."
Be clear, this is NOT about euthanasia, or about giving up on people before their time. It is simply a recognition that heroic treatment at all costs can cross the line into death with terrible indignity, and gratuitous torture. Incorporating a bit of grace into our last months of life is not only cost-effective, but life-enhancing, IMHO.
If you are receiving your care on someone else's dime then this seems to be the logical future... if you are Bill Gates and want to flush 1B for another hour of breathing then so be it I suppose. I do think we work harder than most countries to stave off death... both at the beginning and ends of life. That comes with a price... both in dignity and dollars.
Well... I am glad to be the simple recipient of teasing. That I can take in good humor. I am more glad to be able to refrain from colon shift 0.
Grounded in research at the Dartmouth Medical School, slow medicine encourages physicians to put on the brakes when considering care that may have high risks and limited rewards for the elderly
I would remain adamant that such decisions do not come from physicians but rather their patients, after being duly educated in the relative risks/rewards of a given therapy. At present my father is dying of leukemia, of a type (AML)that has a very low percentage of successful treatment at his age. Rather than either a) dive right in with painful and quality-of-life demolishing treatments with low chance of success, or b) deciding for him that they're not worth it, the doctor explained the situation to my dad and let him decide. He chose to take the path of a potentially shorter but higher quality life at the end. His only treatment now is to receive red blood cell transfusions to replace those his body is no longer producing. Eventually he runs out of donor matches and then the game's up. Maybe he has a year.
But that darn well better be the decision of the one dying, and not some cost-conscious bureaucrat. I would fight that tooth and nail.
DC, of course it must be the decision of the one dying; that's what 'death with dignity' is all about. And I have great respect for your dad's decision.
The Illinois senator also chided McCain and Bush for "saying no to America's farmers and ranchers, no to energy independence, no to the environment, and no to millions of hungry people."
How is this any different than anything else you here from other politicians? While I have not read the bill... I find it hard to believe that opposition to it means you hate the American farmer and you want people to be hungry...
Now to rejoin the thread already in progress... the end result of government seems to involve it deciding who lives and who dies... who has value and who does not... that is a constant theme of almost all styles... they all just entail different answers or different methods of arriving at that point. If the government is paying for it (which means the application of force to those with the means to make them pay for services for those who do not) then the decision making process will divert to the person processing the funds. That does seem to be a legacy of W. Europe and not always to the betterment of those who are determined to be ready for 'carousel'...
I just want to say, PL, that your final paragraph here is fantastic. It took me years of being a cranky libertarian conservative P.J. O'Rourke reader before I realized the error of my ways, and your statement clearly outlines that error. Namely that without other people, we are not ourselves people.
Scientists have found that human beings, isolated from contact with other humans, rapidly deteriorate mentally and physically. Usually an isolated person will start to hallucinate in less than two weeks; full-blown psychosis sets in shortly after. (A person in an isolation tank, separated from sensory contact with the entire world, will start to hallucinate in about an hour.) In short: Any person's conception of themselves and the world around them is based on communication with other people. You don't exist unless other people exist.
Thus the idea of "pure" libertarianism is insane. What other people do is not entirely their business; it's yours, too. We're all too tangled up in each other for it to be otherwise.
Darlings, where to start? Sometimes I feel as though I have lived a thousand lives in this one, dewy and unlined though my complexion may be. To Tell All may be to intimidate; thus I maintain, at most times, a discreet reserve. But here I share my musings, perhaps revealing the secret to my exquisite poise and charm.
12 comments:
Ouch... moping? tantrum? I thought it was reasonably lucid and even toned.
Hardcore libertarian? Perhaps you missed my entire post on just one of the issues libertarians need to address...
I read your plan... obviously you lay it out as an idea with few supporting details (in which of course we would find the devils). I was not aware that you had it... I still think most of the comments in my past postings apply... a) Government actions in the past have done more than a little to foster this nightmare b) Everyone wants a subsidy c) Where is all the money current Western Civilization needs to maintain its programs going to come from.
It is C that I will look at in this particular post. While Obama and Paul are correct that we are wasting a fortune in military adventures all over the world... the idea that if we stop money will fall from the heaven like manna seems overblown. This reminds me of Bush the Elders 'Peace Dividend'... what dividend? Exactly.
We as a society are broke at every level... SS and Medicare alone will drive us into a financial ruin (ok... this is a bit mopey). And what is the idea for solving that problem? I doubt PL runs up significant medical expenses. I am sure with her full participation in the hippy routines available (truly an endearing quality) that she is not frequent at her local hospital. However, most medical care expenditures occur in the last 6 months of life. Short of avoiding the last 6 months of life, how does one avoid those expenses? As we have already committed to funding them to the largest voting block, and soon to be largest population block, in this country... again, where does the money come from?
One should hardly assume that I am an emotional poster. This represents the one way I can have a conversation with you at all. I abhor using emoticons... but if I need to throw smiley faces in here then I suppose I will... jSin hearts PL :)
As government has risen so has the requirement that we justify so many of our actions to it... even for EBT you have to provide family data, income etc. The idea of a client has long been established (and very documented from at least the Roman Republic times). You owe who you take from and the person you take from owns you. With each successive program and generation of a program it will become more invasive. Give one circus and the next one has to be bigger... Medicare is a perfect example of this... predicted to cost <100B by this time it costs way beyond... still not enough for our seasoned citizens... now cover medicine... which is predicted to cost 800B? What is the likelihood it runs less than 4T.
I do not believe that people are not interconnected... I do not believe we do not have obligations to others... if I was to trail out my personal efforts it would seem simply self promotion... but government is not society... government is not what interconnects us... government is force... sometimes force is necessary (how libertarian does that make me sound?) but must all associations, all charity, all civil interactions be driven by it?
Hmm let me throw in a :) hah hah (<--- see I thought it was funny) :) (I really did... not being sarcastic)
I honestly do appreciate your lengthy and thoughtful replies... I have found that people who think on things as a population are about as dead as conversation...
most medical care expenditures occur in the last 6 months of life. Short of avoiding the last 6 months of life, how does one avoid those expenses?
HA!!!
You use slow medicine.
"Grounded in research at the Dartmouth Medical School, slow medicine encourages physicians to put on the brakes when considering care that may have high risks and limited rewards for the elderly, and it educates patients and families how to push back against emergency room trips and hospitalizations designed for those with treatable illnesses, not the inevitable erosion of advanced age."
Be clear, this is NOT about euthanasia, or about giving up on people before their time. It is simply a recognition that heroic treatment at all costs can cross the line into death with terrible indignity, and gratuitous torture. Incorporating a bit of grace into our last months of life is not only cost-effective, but life-enhancing, IMHO.
Ouch... moping? tantrum?
Teasing hyperbole is one of Pretty Lady's signature characteristics. You need not emulate them, if they don't suit you. ;-)
If you are receiving your care on someone else's dime then this seems to be the logical future... if you are Bill Gates and want to flush 1B for another hour of breathing then so be it I suppose. I do think we work harder than most countries to stave off death... both at the beginning and ends of life. That comes with a price... both in dignity and dollars.
Well... I am glad to be the simple recipient of teasing. That I can take in good humor. I am more glad to be able to refrain from colon shift 0.
Grounded in research at the Dartmouth Medical School, slow medicine encourages physicians to put on the brakes when considering care that may have high risks and limited rewards for the elderly
I would remain adamant that such decisions do not come from physicians but rather their patients, after being duly educated in the relative risks/rewards of a given therapy. At present my father is dying of leukemia, of a type (AML)that has a very low percentage of successful treatment at his age. Rather than either a) dive right in with painful and quality-of-life demolishing treatments with low chance of success, or b) deciding for him that they're not worth it, the doctor explained the situation to my dad and let him decide. He chose to take the path of a potentially shorter but higher quality life at the end. His only treatment now is to receive red blood cell transfusions to replace those his body is no longer producing. Eventually he runs out of donor matches and then the game's up. Maybe he has a year.
But that darn well better be the decision of the one dying, and not some cost-conscious bureaucrat. I would fight that tooth and nail.
DC, of course it must be the decision of the one dying; that's what 'death with dignity' is all about. And I have great respect for your dad's decision.
On a thread diverting note...
The Illinois senator also chided McCain and Bush for "saying no to America's farmers and ranchers, no to energy independence, no to the environment, and no to millions of hungry people."
How is this any different than anything else you here from other politicians?
While I have not read the bill... I find it hard to believe that opposition to it means you hate the American farmer and you want people to be hungry...
Now to rejoin the thread already in progress... the end result of government seems to involve it deciding who lives and who dies... who has value and who does not... that is a constant theme of almost all styles... they all just entail different answers or different methods of arriving at that point. If the government is paying for it (which means the application of force to those with the means to make them pay for services for those who do not) then the decision making process will divert to the person processing the funds. That does seem to be a legacy of W. Europe and not always to the betterment of those who are determined to be ready for 'carousel'...
Wow... I meant hear... not here... somebody needs to get a speak and spell... or hooked on phonics...
I just want to say, PL, that your final paragraph here is fantastic. It took me years of being a cranky libertarian conservative P.J. O'Rourke reader before I realized the error of my ways, and your statement clearly outlines that error. Namely that without other people, we are not ourselves people.
Scientists have found that human beings, isolated from contact with other humans, rapidly deteriorate mentally and physically. Usually an isolated person will start to hallucinate in less than two weeks; full-blown psychosis sets in shortly after. (A person in an isolation tank, separated from sensory contact with the entire world, will start to hallucinate in about an hour.) In short: Any person's conception of themselves and the world around them is based on communication with other people. You don't exist unless other people exist.
Thus the idea of "pure" libertarianism is insane. What other people do is not entirely their business; it's yours, too. We're all too tangled up in each other for it to be otherwise.
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