I assume you mean one shouldn't marry someone who is gay unless one is also gay. Perhaps, more generally, you should say you shouldn't marry someone with a different gender preference than your own gender.
I mean, I could marry a gay man and make him quite happy, I imagine. I don't think I'd enjoy it that much in the long run, though. In the short run....
But I'm getting off-topic.
I also object regarding True Love. It doesn't have to end badly. Sometimes it's exactly right and has nothing to do with Issues. Sometimes it just is, even if you don't believe in it -- and I certainly didn't -- and it will force itself upon you. It happens.
Absolutely. I was not thinking with my usual over-articulated clarity, at all, at all.
Largely what was going through my mind was all of those girls in college who used to get passionate crushes on gay men, and then be devastated because the gay men loved them like sisters. Couple this sort of thing with gay men who are trying to fake 'normality,' and you have epic tragedy.
I did well on your list... although it's all eye of the beholder and all that. I don't think you were over the top in expectations and sometimes people grow on you if you have a few things in common. That said, it's always work.
I'd add to #2 compatible religious values, including different Christian denominations. I've seen marriages come apart over the issue of which Sunday School the children will attend and when and at which church they will be baptized; marriages that were reasonably happy previous to children. So I think, in this day and age of religious tolerence, which is, in general, a good thing, something needs to be said specificly about compatable religions in marriage.
I would lump that in with 'compatible values' in general, Boysmom. Although it strikes me that any marriage which comes apart solely on the basis of which Sunday school to attend is lacking in more than a bit of maturity and willingness to compromise on behalf of the greater good.
Yes, in some ways, Pretty Lady, but when you have "Christmas is Evil" on one side and "Christmas is Good" on the other, or "wicked Mary-worshipers" versus "rebellious anti-pope protestent", things do tend to get heated, and the families inevitably get involved, loudly and damningly, and tell the entire community about how evil their son/daughter-in-law is and how they're trying to drag the grandchildren to Hell. Which is why I'd specificly add it in under values.
Most people are not very good at compromising more than a degree or two on their religion. If you (generic plural you) are, that's great, just be sure you won't be upset when your spouse teaches your children to pray to saints (Catholic), that your son can also become a god over his own world(Mormon), or refuses to celebrate holidays (Jehovah's Witness), all things I've seen families come apart over.
Completely unrelated, I think we should bring back the second person singular in blogging. That would clear up so much confusion.
Good heavens, Boysmom, that IS a concern. It is probably a function of the communities in which I have lived that it isn't something I've come across very often. My cousin in Jackson, however, says she gets very tired of people asking her 'what church do you go to?' as one of the very first things they want to know.
For me, spirituality and religion are extremely private affairs, and I actively resist the attempts of other people to define or control me through them. I consider it completely inappropriate for me to try to control anyone else in that way, even my child or partner. So anyone who tried would probably not make it much farther than the first date.
What's your name, what chuch do you go to, where do you/your husband work, and are your kids in school yet/where do your kids go to school at? In that order. Yes, exactly what your cousin says. I suspect it is because, to a large extent, the churches are the center of social existance. I understand that at one time in many communities the Gange, Masons, Odd Fellows, Rotary, Unions, etc, served a similar purpose. It really isn't just church on Sunday--it's dinners, luncheons, New Years Eve parties, a whole host of weekly Bible Studies, choirs, dances--if you're allowed them, everything.
But considering how often religious discussions get contentious over at Vox Popoli, I'd not have expected you to be surprised that other folks get nasty about religion. Is your cousin a neighbor of mine, then? If you ever get out this way ask her to take you to Dan's coffee shop in Pinedale, I bet you'd like it. And him. He's our local hippie and photographic artist--every town needs at least one good hippie. Plus he has good coffee. And clothing.
Oh, my cousin is in Jackson, Mississippi. I forget which state you are in, but it is somewhere out west, no? Wyoming or Montana? There was a reason I fled small-to-medium-size towns for the Big City. In New York, everybody is so different from each other that most of us get along just fine. Our expectations of one another are nearly nil.
My experience at Vox Popoli has led me to believe that it is largely nasty people who get nasty about religion. I have had many perfectly amicable religious discussions with the nice ones, regardless of whether we agreed or not.
But when religion is the basis for your entire community, no doubt any challenge to it is intolerable.
Well, one of the main sociological -- one might say evolutionary -- purposes of religion is to break the world into Us and an easily identified Them. If you're founding a religion -- or a cult, either one -- one of the first things you do is find something, anything, no matter how silly it might seem, that tells who is in and who is out. Maybe you grow the hair on the side of your head (because the other guys shave theirs). Maybe you construe one verse of the Bible as meaning you must tithe ten percent of your earnings to your church.
I'm not saying all religions are bogus (or that they're all cults). But they do all share that one thing (at least): There's Us and there's Them. They believe in saints. They believe in full-immersion baptism. They believe in...whatever. As long as there's something it doesn't really matter what it is.
So of course you need to have compatible religious beliefs. That's part of the package, that you mingle and breed only within your group. Helps cohesion. You can't leave your religion if all your friends and family are in it, too. Where would you go? Leave your kids? Who could do that?
Again, I'm not saying this as a criticism, necessarily. It's just how religion works. It might even be necessary for the survival of the species. Who knows?
Speaking of cults, have you heard about this weird cannibal cult? It broke off from an older, established religion and it's apparently very widespread and has sects all over the world. Their leader is dead, or undead, or is coming back from the dead any day now, and every week the adherents perform a ritual in which they eat a little piece of his body and drink a little bit of his blood. Some of them are perfectly benign, but others are scary and advocate killing people who believe in other forms of voodoo. Wacky what some believe believe, no?
you know I luv ya, PL, just gotta tease you a bit every now and then.
Anon, you've correctly identified it, and I can tell you it makes some people squeam just a bit to think of it that way and they weasel around with meanings, but he did say it, pretty boldly no less, and at least in a spiritual sense it *is* what the Eucharist is about.
When you understand why cannibals do what they do, you may understand its meaning more deeply.
Darlings, where to start? Sometimes I feel as though I have lived a thousand lives in this one, dewy and unlined though my complexion may be. To Tell All may be to intimidate; thus I maintain, at most times, a discreet reserve. But here I share my musings, perhaps revealing the secret to my exquisite poise and charm.
17 comments:
That was sensible, indeed.
And how timely! Valentines' Day is just around the corner...
and Walter is stuck in Canada, paperless, incommunicado...
I assume you mean one shouldn't marry someone who is gay unless one is also gay. Perhaps, more generally, you should say you shouldn't marry someone with a different gender preference than your own gender.
I mean, I could marry a gay man and make him quite happy, I imagine. I don't think I'd enjoy it that much in the long run, though. In the short run....
But I'm getting off-topic.
I also object regarding True Love. It doesn't have to end badly. Sometimes it's exactly right and has nothing to do with Issues. Sometimes it just is, even if you don't believe in it -- and I certainly didn't -- and it will force itself upon you. It happens.
I assume you mean one shouldn't marry someone who is gay unless one is also gay.
Chris, you beat me to it.
O
Absolutely. I was not thinking with my usual over-articulated clarity, at all, at all.
Largely what was going through my mind was all of those girls in college who used to get passionate crushes on gay men, and then be devastated because the gay men loved them like sisters. Couple this sort of thing with gay men who are trying to fake 'normality,' and you have epic tragedy.
Or you get light comedy, a la Will & Grace.
O
The fact that Will & Grace was a successful TV show is epic tragedy, not light comedy.
I did well on your list... although it's all eye of the beholder and all that. I don't think you were over the top in expectations and sometimes people grow on you if you have a few things in common. That said, it's always work.
I'd add to #2 compatible religious values, including different Christian denominations. I've seen marriages come apart over the issue of which Sunday School the children will attend and when and at which church they will be baptized; marriages that were reasonably happy previous to children.
So I think, in this day and age of religious tolerence, which is, in general, a good thing, something needs to be said specificly about compatable religions in marriage.
I would lump that in with 'compatible values' in general, Boysmom. Although it strikes me that any marriage which comes apart solely on the basis of which Sunday school to attend is lacking in more than a bit of maturity and willingness to compromise on behalf of the greater good.
Yes, in some ways, Pretty Lady, but when you have "Christmas is Evil" on one side and "Christmas is Good" on the other, or "wicked Mary-worshipers" versus "rebellious anti-pope protestent", things do tend to get heated, and the families inevitably get involved, loudly and damningly, and tell the entire community about how evil their son/daughter-in-law is and how they're trying to drag the grandchildren to Hell. Which is why I'd specificly add it in under values.
Most people are not very good at compromising more than a degree or two on their religion. If you (generic plural you) are, that's great, just be sure you won't be upset when your spouse teaches your children to pray to saints (Catholic), that your son can also become a god over his own world(Mormon), or refuses to celebrate holidays (Jehovah's Witness), all things I've seen families come apart over.
Completely unrelated, I think we should bring back the second person singular in blogging. That would clear up so much confusion.
Good heavens, Boysmom, that IS a concern. It is probably a function of the communities in which I have lived that it isn't something I've come across very often. My cousin in Jackson, however, says she gets very tired of people asking her 'what church do you go to?' as one of the very first things they want to know.
For me, spirituality and religion are extremely private affairs, and I actively resist the attempts of other people to define or control me through them. I consider it completely inappropriate for me to try to control anyone else in that way, even my child or partner. So anyone who tried would probably not make it much farther than the first date.
What's your name, what chuch do you go to, where do you/your husband work, and are your kids in school yet/where do your kids go to school at? In that order.
Yes, exactly what your cousin says. I suspect it is because, to a large extent, the churches are the center of social existance. I understand that at one time in many communities the Gange, Masons, Odd Fellows, Rotary, Unions, etc, served a similar purpose. It really isn't just church on Sunday--it's dinners, luncheons, New Years Eve parties, a whole host of weekly Bible Studies, choirs, dances--if you're allowed them, everything.
But considering how often religious discussions get contentious over at Vox Popoli, I'd not have expected you to be surprised that other folks get nasty about religion.
Is your cousin a neighbor of mine, then? If you ever get out this way ask her to take you to Dan's coffee shop in Pinedale, I bet you'd like it. And him. He's our local hippie and photographic artist--every town needs at least one good hippie. Plus he has good coffee. And clothing.
Oh, my cousin is in Jackson, Mississippi. I forget which state you are in, but it is somewhere out west, no? Wyoming or Montana? There was a reason I fled small-to-medium-size towns for the Big City. In New York, everybody is so different from each other that most of us get along just fine. Our expectations of one another are nearly nil.
My experience at Vox Popoli has led me to believe that it is largely nasty people who get nasty about religion. I have had many perfectly amicable religious discussions with the nice ones, regardless of whether we agreed or not.
But when religion is the basis for your entire community, no doubt any challenge to it is intolerable.
Well, one of the main sociological -- one might say evolutionary -- purposes of religion is to break the world into Us and an easily identified Them. If you're founding a religion -- or a cult, either one -- one of the first things you do is find something, anything, no matter how silly it might seem, that tells who is in and who is out. Maybe you grow the hair on the side of your head (because the other guys shave theirs). Maybe you construe one verse of the Bible as meaning you must tithe ten percent of your earnings to your church.
I'm not saying all religions are bogus (or that they're all cults). But they do all share that one thing (at least): There's Us and there's Them. They believe in saints. They believe in full-immersion baptism. They believe in...whatever. As long as there's something it doesn't really matter what it is.
So of course you need to have compatible religious beliefs. That's part of the package, that you mingle and breed only within your group. Helps cohesion. You can't leave your religion if all your friends and family are in it, too. Where would you go? Leave your kids? Who could do that?
Again, I'm not saying this as a criticism, necessarily. It's just how religion works. It might even be necessary for the survival of the species. Who knows?
Speaking of cults, have you heard about this weird cannibal cult? It broke off from an older, established religion and it's apparently very widespread and has sects all over the world. Their leader is dead, or undead, or is coming back from the dead any day now, and every week the adherents perform a ritual in which they eat a little piece of his body and drink a little bit of his blood. Some of them are perfectly benign, but others are scary and advocate killing people who believe in other forms of voodoo. Wacky what some believe believe, no?
you know I luv ya, PL, just gotta tease you a bit every now and then.
xx
Anon, you've correctly identified it, and I can tell you it makes some people squeam just a bit to think of it that way and they weasel around with meanings, but he did say it, pretty boldly no less, and at least in a spiritual sense it *is* what the Eucharist is about.
When you understand why cannibals do what they do, you may understand its meaning more deeply.
"You are what you eat..." ;)
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